UW in State or UVA out of state?
Hello, I'm a current high school senior with an interest in business. I was accepted into the University of Virginia early decision and also applied to my in-state public University, the University of Washington. I am trying to justify the cost of UVA to my parents, but they insist that UW will provide me with the same opportunities, while being four times cheaper. Additionally, they claim that undergrad doesn't really matter in business, as I will have to get an MBA as well. Will I really have the same opportunities for MBB and BBs if I go to UW vs UVA?
Is it McIntire? UVA is a substantially better school than UW, especially for finance.
I can only go to McIntire after sophomore year. Before that, I'll just be in the college of arts and sciences.
It'll be interesting to get folks thoughts on this. I'll give you my opinion and this is soley my opinion. I'm not a UVA or a UW alum nor do I know a ton about either school. First of all congrats on getting into both schools, especially UVA. For an out of state candidate the bar is high and you should be proud that you cleared it. I'm assuming you didn't get any aid, so basically the decision is in-state tuition at UW vs out of state at UVA. So about a $200-250k difference.
UVA is a great school, with a strong brand name and good placement into top banks and consulting firms. It really helps if you get into McIntire, which I believe you apply you in your sophomore year and it's very competitive to get into(someone from UVA check me on this) I've been corrected on this, sounds like it doesn't matter as much. I've also always been under the impression that for the top jobs, it's a pretty significant leg up if you're coming from McIntire vs the normal college. I don't think they do early admission into that college like some other undergrad programs, so you'd basically have to roll the dice.
UW is a solid school, if your'e a top student, you'll have a good set of opportunities, but they'll likely be much more regional. You'll be at a MM bank in Seattle or a Seattle office of a big consulting firm vs being in NYC/SF etc. UVA will help you branch out more to some of the more top tier opportunities and the most important part is that you'll get a much stronger overall network, both across the US and globally. You can really only do undergrad once and it will brand you in a different way. It's tough to put a price on that. For that reason, I can absolutely see people coming in here and saying you should 100% do UVA and I'm somewhat inclined to agree...
With that said, I'm not sure I'm 100% confident that UVA is worth the $200k delta, especially if you don't know if you're going to be able to get into the business program. If money isn't much of an issue, then you should take UVA. If money is a little tighter, it becomes a tougher issue. UW is a solid state school and there's so reason to think you couldn't go from UW to a solid job to a top MBA. It kind of comes down to how ambitious you are, what jobs you want to target, and why you want to target them. Frankly if the best two schools you got into were UW and UVA, it sounds like you might not have been a top top student, so not Ivys, no other top schools etc. UVA is an improvement, but I'm not entirely convinced it's the panacea of job placement that you're looking for. Again, I could be wrong, I don't have any placement stats from UVA, so maybe it's something crazy like everyone from McIntire gets a great job. My gut is that similar to other public schools UVA has some great outcomes for top students and given the size of the alumni base and student body a couple of people do really well each year, but it's not like they're sending 100+ kids to MBB/BB Banks. Will that give you a little bit of a bump in terms of your chances to land a job? Yes? Is it significant and worth 200k? Really hard to tell.
Slightly outside the scope of your decision, but another thing you cold think about is taking UW for a year, kill it in classes, and then try to lateral to a private school that might be more worth the cost if that makes sense. An Ivy or a good private school like a Duke or UChicago. I could get behind paying 200k for Duke over UW more easily than I could for UVA.
I didn't give a great answer and it's a tough decision. The $200k is significant money, but UVA is definitely one click up in terms of prestige and job placement. At the same time, it still is a state school, so the quality of students will be mixed, and if you don't get into McIntire, the opportunities will be more limited. The network is expansive and strong, but personally I think of UVA as a very solid school, but not a top tier. It's a top public university for sure, but is that worth $200k? I can't say for certain, you've got to think about your family situation, what type of person you are, and make that decision.
Edit: One other thing I thought about regarding money. Again, not sure exactly what your situation is, but one way to think about/frame the decision is about whether you could be willing or able to take on the debt personally to go to UVA vs UW. If the option to you was, your parents saved $50k to send you to college and get you started on your life. That either gets you a degree from UW or, that pays for one year of UVA and you're on the hook for $150k in student debt. Do you think the debt is worth it based on the opportunities you think UVA will provide? Do some research on that. If your parents aren't convinced, try to find some data to support your claims. $200k is a lot to ask of your parents, especially if they're going to need to take on debt to do it.
Last thing: https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/umd-in-state-or-uva-out-of-state
^ That should be the most directly relevant thread to what you're thinking about. Some good insights in there.
Edit 2: I stand corrected on the McIntire comments. Sounds like it doesn't matter that much for recruiting. So maybe moves the needle a little close to UVA.
I think you framed the problem and summed it up perfectly.
One thing to add to the OP -- getting an MBA is absolutely not required for a business career, especially in finance. Even in consulting, it seems to be much less of a requirement than it was even 20 years ago and I know some firms (Oliver Wyman especially comes to mind) that make it very easy to keep getting promoted up the ladder without having to do an advanced degree.
McIntire matters exactly 0 for IB recruiting, as most recruiting takes place before you get accepted or not. Let's not spread misinformation here.
No worries, feel free to expand on that. I explicitly said I wasn't an expert and asked for others to chime in.
I'm assuming you didn't attend UVA. McIntire is a slight improvement over college of A&S in terms of recruiting (looking from the inside). However, at the end of the day it's more about connections & GPA. Banks who recruited at McIntire also recruited at the college of A&S (big names too like BAML and WFS). In order to stand out, you have to have good GPA (3.8+). In other words, 3.8 Econ > 3.5-3.6 McIntire assuming that everything else is equal. Obviously, if the GPAs are the same, it becomes closer, but I don't think McIntire plays that big of a role if you have a high GPA in Econ.
Great answer. I would like to add that both are excellent schools. UW places very well in tech. Unfortunately, due to location, getting placed in IB might be a challenge because the closest major IB scene is in San Fran. Does not mean all is lost if you choose UW. The fact that you are thinking about IB this early is an advantage. Try to get freshmen and sophomore internships in cities like San Fran, LA, Salt Lake, Denver (for middle market). Then lateral to the NYC office if that is your goal. You can also try to get FP&A and Corp Dev internships at the local tech companies, Starbucks etc.. You will need to network. UW also has an excellent accounting program. As a back up plan you can go the Big 4 route. Location will be the only big hurtle, but with playing your cards right, you can get over it.
My big concern with UVA is the cost (No college should cost this much). If you end up hating banking, you could end up in a golden handcuffs situation. I hope this helps.
UW grad here.
If you can get into Foster, and assuming 200k is a lot of money for you, I think it makes more sense to go to UW. My sister turned down Berkeley, UCLA, and NYU because the cost differential makes no sense for in-state. I didn’t get into any of those and still got where I wanted to be.
As long as you do well in school, are involved in the IB/consulting clubs, do a ton of internships, and talk to alumni (very important), you should have a decent shot getting in somewhere.
You would be surprised by how many people make it to these roles from schools less known than UW. Take everything on this site with a grain of salt.
Good luck!
Got it. Thank you so much for the advice!
UVA for sure. You're already going to be somewhat considered a semi-target or 'lower tier target' coming from UVA, so personally it's not worth it to switch to UDUB. IF you were in a situation where you're deciding between being in state at NYU/Umich/Berekely instead of going to Cornell or something like that, then I'd say it might be worth it to stay in state since you won't have trouble breaking into IB from any of those schools. However, UW is not a walk in the park for IB recruiting. Even UCLA puts you on your feet if you're trying to get into the main NYC/ Chicago offices. UVA has a great program and I have seen many people in the business program make it into IB at top firms in NYC and Chicago. UVA will almost certainly get you a better offer and position long term, so the tuition costs will be worth the UVA degree. just my .02 cents
IB is one of those 'old school' industries where prestige and ranking matter for recruitment. Even being at a top non-ivy puts you at a disadvantage over the IBY students. If you were going into something else non-IB I'd say go to UW because your job prospects don't differ that much, but for undergrad recruiting prestige and connections are everything. Despite all of the guys on here who say they got their offers through hard work and talent, the truth is that 98% of offers come from a firm they got a referral from and they likely went to a top 25 school. There are less chances for a referral at UW and the prestige factor is lower as well. But ultimately your parents will have the final say
Problem is that he's a high school student and realistically has no idea if he'll actually end up pursuing IB. Lots can happen between now and then. 200k is a lot to pay to give yourself a marginally higher chance of getting into a certain industry that you don't actually know much about yet.
I'm from Seattle. Honestly go to UW, its cheaper, its a damn nice school, and you will enjoy the culture there more vs moving all the way over to Virginia and socializing with a bunch of guys that have the eli manning southern swoop haircut, wear pastel shorts and bowties, and talk about "lax". As someone raised in the PnW it was a culture shock to be around that (and not in a good way).
Plus, and this is the most critical part, at UW you can major in CS and land a much more interesting and enjoyable career then going to UVA, trying to recruit in finance, and grinding out 100 hrs a week in NYC. UW is a top tech school and will set you up very nicely. UW is also very good for pre med also.
Skip finance, go to UW, learn tech/engineering, and do not look back.
UVA & McIntire grad here and I'm going to be brutally honest with you: The folks who get good/top placement at UVA (Yes, UVA, not just McIntire) are the top 10%-20% of students academically (~3.75+) and then those who had connections via relatives or fraternity (one kid I knew had a ~3.8 GPA and only got an interview at GS because of a relative)... If you think you can get a 3.8 and maintain through recruiting cycle, go UVA and outcomes will be good (assuming you do the networking/leg work). If you don't feel confident that you can be in the top 10%-15% of the class, I would take the other school because outcomes vary significantly if your GPA is in the 3.4-3.6 range. Also, make sure you join a fraternity. I made a huge mistake by not joining one because money was tight and I couldn't afford it. I suspect I could have had a much better time in college and also had better job opportunities due to the network. Learn from my mistakes... Back to the point: I was in the ~50% range at McIntire and my placement opportunities were not that great. Again, this is just my view so take with a grain of salt, but ultimately I think it depends on how well you think you can do. This is a high risk and high reward situation.
This a better, more concrete point to the general notion I mentioned in my post above. UVA is a good school, but a big one, and it's not like Wall Street is taking hundreds of people a year. As with all schools the top students will have good opportunities, but it sounds like you need to be a top student and to have some extra connections/networking chops. The pool might be slightly bigger at UVA than at UW, but it will also be more competitive. Probably better to be a standout at UW vs middling or even top quartile at UVA.
As with many things in life, it's relative.
Culture fit is another good point. UVA has a distinct type of culture, it's frattier, more southern vibes, etc. Not a bad thing, but if you're not used to that, coming from the PNW, you might not love it either.
Exactly. Uw you don't need to join a frat to enjoy the social life. Uva is a requirement if not a d1 athlete to have a good social life. Paying money to do an elephant walk with a dudes cock and lame secret handshak doesn't sound like my idea of a cool college experience.
I just visited Seattle and the surrounding areas for a job interview. I checked out Udub, gasworks, and some other iconic places and honestly it's so much prettier than where I go to school. The business school there is really good and I met surprisingly more finance people in the city than I thought there would be and honestly the area is a great place to be imo. If I end up getting this job in Seattle and you choose Udub I'll literally help give you the tools to get most finance jobs.
I went to both a low tier UC and a high tier UC (undergrad) and between those I think the difference is worth $200K. Between UW and UVA I don't think it's worth the difference. If you make a good impression on some of your Udub professors you'll do just fine.
What do your parents do? If they are employed in normal corporate jobs, then they may have a completely different perspective. I feel like in banking (coming from a soon to be non-target student) school absolutely matters. Take a look on linkedin and see how many people from UVA are at reputable firms vs UW. Also, in banking, an MBA is considered a 2 year break (based on the bankers I have talked to) to calm down and chill before going back. In PE, its different because some firms require it to move on to the Sr. Associate/VP level. Otherwise you don't NEED an MBA. I personally think UW will not provide the same opportunities. In fact, it may cost you money. Maybe not at first, but over your career, it could be very possible that you would pay the price of not going to UVA by not having the same job prospects. I can speak on this because I have parents whose ideas are similar to your parents'.
again, go to uw and forget finance. study tech there. will set you up to earn MORE pay than IB, working less hours. making 400 to 500k in seattle area in tech is basically a joke nowadays, anyone halfway smart can do that in a few years after undergrad. as you get more senior its gets even higher with RSU appreciation.
Keep in mind this guy is in HS. How can you be 18 and dishing out recruiting advice
As someone who will be attending a non-target and has been reading about how hard it is for non-targets to break in, I am just giving the advice as to what I would do if I were in his place. I am worried if I will be able to make it from a non-target (around the same ranking/prestige as UW). I know it won't be easy. Based on this site, UVA seems like an absolutely excellent school. If I were in his place, I would choose UVA in a heartbeat. In fact, I am already thinking about what I should do in my freshman year to best position myself to transfer to a school like UVA/top LAC's.
If you actually have to take on debt, I don’t see how you can justify UVA. I think UVA is actually a top school for job placement out of UG. Better than some of the commenters are giving it credit for.
But connections for early internships, grades, involvement in investing clubs, your personality are all so much more important than the difference between UW and UVA. I might not say the same for Alabama vs Wharton. But even then, I know people who end up at BBs from Alabama.
I think recruiting is a much more even playing field compared to 10 years ago. I went to UGA, wasn’t involved in investment clubs, started at a MM and lateraled my way to a BB. It’s not complicated stuff.
If you work hard, you can go to literally the biggest party schools in the country (ASU, Arizona, Alabama, FSU, etc) and make it into a top IB. You just have to bust your ass the same way you would if you were at Wharton and can’t let your less impressive peers drag you down. I remember going to the library every night to study and do interview prep while my buddies smoked pot and played FIFA. You just have to put on blinders and not get distracted
ASU is a target/feeder school for tech. It has an excellent CS program. It also places well in Goldman Sachs, Salt Lake.
GS Salt Lake is MO/BO roles. They folded the IB practice a few years back.
Found the UGA alum. UGA is a distant 3rd in Georgia alone (with Emory and Georgia Tech at the forefront) let alone being a "top 2" SEC school as you claim.
UW is an academically hard school because it is one of the top feeder schools for tech. The CS and engineering programs are filled with over achieving Asians trying to break into tech. You will meet a lot of bright people at UW. Research small regional investment banks and wealth management firms as well as corp dev/fin for early internships. The only reason why UVA has more recruiting is because more people want banking at that school. At UW, more people want tech. At UW, you can test the tech scene and the banking scene to see what you like better.
By the way, if some airhead banking recruiter or some narcissistic hiring manager at banking questions the rigor of UW, you can tell them to F..k off. You do not want to work for those people anyway.
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