IBD FT recruiting at Ivies - 2011 
I am a senior at lower tier Ivy going through On Campus Interviews... and, to say the least, the results so far have been very disappointing. This year's recruiting has been brutal in my opinion, as like 2 of the Bulge Brackets didn't even show up to recruit this year at my school. I am kicking myself in the butt for not going for SA recruiting back in my junior year. Last year, I didn't know I wanted IBD and did Consulting internship. (which, unfortunately, didn't lead to permanent offer) This year, like 500 kids from my school applied for like 3-4 analyst jobs at GS. I was wondering if anyone else out there going through interviews have tough time at their school. (I hope my school's not the only one that has a bitch recruiting season...) To those who aren't getting IBD offers: what is your next plan?? What do you plan to do after graduating?
I have 3.5 GPA in Econ at low tier Ivy and got dinged by all IBD shops and didn't make it to any of their second rounds. I realize I am not the most competitive candidate as there are kids with better GPA and more finance-related resume, but, I expected to at least land several interviews, which wasn't the case. (I got 1 on-campus interview after pre-select and didn't make it to second round)
Is this year's FT recruiting for IBD one of the worst ever in history? What's the deal.
did you think that going to a
did you think that going to a SUNY entitled you to an IBD job?
bears1208 wrote: did you
did you think that going to a SUNY entitled you to an IBD job?
Dude. Plenty of kids from my school in previous years landed IBD with 3.5+ GPA as long as they had good resume and studied Vault interview prep guide. This year seems to be worse than any other recent year. Or, is it just me that is going though this shit.
Sexy_Like_Enrique
did you think that going to a SUNY entitled you to an IBD job?
Dude. Plenty of kids from my school in previous years landed IBD with 3.5+ GPA as long as they had good resume and studied Vault interview prep guide. This year seems to be worse than any other recent year. Or, is it just me that is going though this shit.
I think people get caught up and don't see the whole picture. Plenty of kids from schools like cornell and brown get IBD, but it's still a majority who want it that don't. Recruiting has been tough, but it's been that way for the last several years and we are likely at a new lowered level of demand for labor. But even before that striking out at IBD recruiting was not uncommon for people in your position. Personally I turned my attention to private banking jobs and have 3 final rounds at BB private banking/pwm jobs. My lack of finance experience (much like you) has seemed to matter a lot less and you can still make a relatively large amount of money. I also have two f500 offers. It kind of sucks but you have to remember the situation most people are in, even those at your school. Also something like SA recruiting again and getting an MSF have crossed my mind.
bears1208
did you think that going to a SUNY entitled you to an IBD job?
Dude. Plenty of kids from my school in previous years landed IBD with 3.5+ GPA as long as they had good resume and studied Vault interview prep guide. This year seems to be worse than any other recent year. Or, is it just me that is going though this shit.
I think people get caught up and don't see the whole picture. Plenty of kids from schools like cornell and brown get IBD, but it's still a majority who want it that don't. Recruiting has been tough, but it's been that way for the last several years and we are likely at a new lowered level of demand for labor. But even before that striking out at IBD recruiting was not uncommon for people in your position. Personally I turned my attention to private banking jobs and have 3 final rounds at BB private banking/pwm jobs. My lack of finance experience (much like you) has seemed to matter a lot less and you can still make a relatively large amount of money. I also have two f500 offers. It kind of sucks but you have to remember the situation most people are in, even those at your school. Also something like SA recruiting again and getting an MSF have crossed my mind.
Agree with this, if you can get a decent job without doing a MSF, take it.
Looking at the MSF stats at decent places, I saw that at most 1/3 of them got "good" finance jobs. These are the jobs that you're fighting over now. The rest were rather unappealing. Those don't seem like great odds.
Yes, I hear recruiting is
Yes, I hear recruiting is pretty bad at my school as well. You can extend your graduation and apply for SA this winter if you really want to be an analyst in investment banking.
Yea, its been pretty rough at
Yea, its been pretty rough at my school as well. We aren't ivy or a BB target, but we are semi-target for firms such as Wells, SunTrust, Raymond James, and R.W Baird. This year we placed 4 undergrads and 7-10 out of the MSF class when it is usually much higher. The problem is that most banks are really raising the bar. When I went to the Wells superday I was shocked to see guys from Harvard, Yale, MIT, and U Penn as my competition. All 6 of my fellow university super dayers were wait listed, but none of us are bad candidates. (A friend of mine accepted an offer from Jefferies).
It's really just a touch game out there, and it is extremely hard to break in if you don't have a connection or haven't done extensive networking. I didn't make the cut from 2 different superdays, but I was fortunate enough to get an offer from my third which I had networked with for several months.
If you can't break in for FT, then I would look for a summer IB analyst role and do MSF. This should allow you time to ride out this storm, develop your resume more tailored to banking, and give you time to start some strong networking initiatives.
Best of luck and I hope everything works out! Hang in there!
Born to bank. Born to win.
a lot of banks just froze ft
a lot of banks just froze ft hiring and gave out crazy return offers to their summer interns, and most interns are going back.
i'm sure this is not as bad for 2009/2010 graduates, but it's pretty shitty
Why do we feel bad for the
Why do we feel bad for the Cornell kid that didn't even decide he wanted to go into IBD until his senior year..? OP is really at a huge disadvantage I don't know how he will manage..Your classmates are going into corporate finance with the f500's they lined up as their back up options. You probably should have worked harder.
Sean518 wrote: Why do we feel
Why do we feel bad for the Cornell kid that didn't even decide he wanted to go into IBD until his senior year..? OP is really at a huge disadvantage I don't know how he will manage..Your classmates are going into corporate finance with the f500's they lined up as their back up options. You probably should have worked harder.
I am not asking for your sympathy. I am interested in hearing about others' advice or their courses of action if they find themselves in similar situations as myself. I wanted to go into Management Consulting initially but after talking with several bankers and interacting with my kids who were in IBD, I decided IBD fits my interest and career goals better. FWIW, until last year, I thought I could try out consulting for internship and still land a banking job at FT recruiting in the fall. I just had this misconception that having management consulting internship on my resume would enable me to break into high finance and other consulting shops, too. (this is what the career services lady told me)
Can you elaborate on what you mean by "being at huge disadvantage".
I'm at a target, and agree FT
I'm at a target, and agree FT recruiting has been pretty difficult. Only 10ish banks are coming to campus for FT recruiting, and it seems most are only hiring one or two more analysts total, not just from my school.
THE PsYcHoLoGy wrote: Yea,
Yea, its been pretty rough at my school as well. We aren't ivy or a BB target, but we are semi-target for firms such as Wells, SunTrust, Raymond James, and R.W Baird. This year we placed 4 undergrads and 7-10 out of the MSF class when it is usually much higher. The problem is that most banks are really raising the bar. When I went to the Wells superday I was shocked to see guys from Harvard, Yale, MIT, and U Penn as my competition. All 6 of my fellow university super dayers were wait listed, but none of us are bad candidates. (A friend of mine accepted an offer from Jefferies).
It's really just a touch game out there, and it is extremely hard to break in if you don't have a connection or haven't done extensive networking. I didn't make the cut from 2 different superdays, but I was fortunate enough to get an offer from my third which I had networked with for several months.
If you can't break in for FT, then I would look for a summer IB analyst role and do MSF. This should allow you time to ride out this storm, develop your resume more tailored to banking, and give you time to start some strong networking initiatives.
Best of luck and I hope everything works out! Hang in there!
Congrats on your offer. I am jealous. And, thanks for your suggestion. My fear with doing an MSF program is that IBD recruiting may not get any better anytime soon and I might still strike out on IBD, even if I go to MSF. I would hate to spend all that money and time to come up short again.
I do agree with your observation that landing IBD gig this year is a bitch. I have 2 friends at Harvard and they tell me unless you landed SA position for internship your junior year or have some contacts to bank on, you are pretty much fucked for IBD recruiting, even coming out of Harvard with good GPA. So, I guess going into FT IBD recruiting without SA IBD internship background is really the kiss of death. (I wish I knew this fact earlier...)
By the way, do banks still recruit MSF kids who did not have IBD internships in the past before the master's degree?? And, what are some MSF programs that place well into IBD. Thanks in advance.
timatom90 wrote: I'm at a
I'm at a target, and agree FT recruiting has been pretty difficult. Only 10ish banks are coming to campus for FT recruiting, and it seems most are only hiring one or two more analysts total, not just from my school.
Holy shit... where did you get this information? Did you have any luck in IBD so far? FT recruiting this year really is the kiss of death...
bears1208
did you think that going to a SUNY entitled you to an IBD job?
Dude. Plenty of kids from my school in previous years landed IBD with 3.5+ GPA as long as they had good resume and studied Vault interview prep guide. This year seems to be worse than any other recent year. Or, is it just me that is going though this shit.
I think people get caught up and don't see the whole picture. Plenty of kids from schools like cornell and brown get IBD, but it's still a majority who want it that don't. Recruiting has been tough, but it's been that way for the last several years and we are likely at a new lowered level of demand for labor. But even before that striking out at IBD recruiting was not uncommon for people in your position. Personally I turned my attention to private banking jobs and have 3 final rounds at BB private banking/pwm jobs. My lack of finance experience (much like you) has seemed to matter a lot less and you can still make a relatively large amount of money. I also have two f500 offers. It kind of sucks but you have to remember the situation most people are in, even those at your school. Also something like SA recruiting again and getting an MSF have crossed my mind.
Does your school get F500 corp finance recruiting? At my school, only F500 company that came was GE for its finance rotational program. Where/how do I even apply for these jobs if these companies don't come to recruit on campus.
Sexy_Like_Enrique
did you think that going to a SUNY entitled you to an IBD job?
Dude. Plenty of kids from my school in previous years landed IBD with 3.5+ GPA as long as they had good resume and studied Vault interview prep guide. This year seems to be worse than any other recent year. Or, is it just me that is going though this shit.
I think people get caught up and don't see the whole picture. Plenty of kids from schools like cornell and brown get IBD, but it's still a majority who want it that don't. Recruiting has been tough, but it's been that way for the last several years and we are likely at a new lowered level of demand for labor. But even before that striking out at IBD recruiting was not uncommon for people in your position. Personally I turned my attention to private banking jobs and have 3 final rounds at BB private banking/pwm jobs. My lack of finance experience (much like you) has seemed to matter a lot less and you can still make a relatively large amount of money. I also have two f500 offers. It kind of sucks but you have to remember the situation most people are in, even those at your school. Also something like SA recruiting again and getting an MSF have crossed my mind.
Does your school get F500 corp finance recruiting? At my school, only F500 company that came was GE for its finance rotational program. Where/how do I even apply for these jobs if these companies don't come to recruit on campus.
A few do, but not more than like 5 or 6. But I did leg work, got in touch with alumni, and did things like apply online and/or send my resume to contacts. I applied to roughly 75ish jobs and got like 15, first rounds and only one IBD. Also, fwiw, one of my f500 offers is a business smaller analyst for a consumer goods company that I got through OCR and one was a known finance rotational program I got a phone interview for from networking. It's been tough because my internship experience was tech related but I've taken what I've gotten and I'd be happy with BB private banking. Fwiw I think the msf only helps depending on what type of internship you can get this summer. If you can't get an IBD internship you probably won't have any more luck in that department but maybe more luck in f500.
Also I just want to point out
Also I just want to point out that relying strictly on OCR has always been a terrible idea.
Sexy_Like_Enrique
I'm at a target, and agree FT recruiting has been pretty difficult. Only 10ish banks are coming to campus for FT recruiting, and it seems most are only hiring one or two more analysts total, not just from my school.
Holy shit... where did you get this information? Did you have any luck in IBD so far? FT recruiting this year really is the kiss of death...
I networked a lot over the summer, wasn't too excited to go back to the bank where I interned this summer (regional city), and a lot of the banks were straight forward in telling me that their classes were nearly full. I've had success in getting interviews and final rounds, but like I said, a lot of these banks are only hiring 1-2 analysts out of their 10-20ish superday applicants and no offers yet (turned down my return offer... starting to feel pretty dumb lol). Good luck with your own recruiting.
If you say "like" as anywhere
If you say "like" as anywhere near as often as you write it, then I like totally understand why you like couldn't get hired.
you wrote that you go to
you wrote that you go to Cornell in your profile. No point in saying that you go to a law tier ivy. People can easily find out. also, i'm not sure what you are talking about. i have numerous senior friends who have gotten offers at good banks and hedge funds. You probably are just not a competitive applicant. and that is your own fault
"Look, you're my best friend, so don't take this the wrong way. In twenty years, if you're still livin' here, comin' over to my house to watch the Patriots games, still workin' construction, I'll fuckin' kill you. That's not a threat, that's a fact.
It's not the end of the world
It's not the end of the world if you can't land a full-time offer, just go to business school in a couple of years and switch in as an associate. I would avoid MSF.
I think us non-target folks
I think us non-target folks have done a lot of damage to the target-school system over the past five years. Recruiting shouldn't be based on which school you went to but what you've done with the cards you've been dealt over the past few years.
Just submitted a 3.99 GPA from a kid studying engineering at a Top 20 US News Engineering school (non-target). His resume is now on our head trader's desk and he is looking at a first-round interview. Five years ago, he would have been beaten out by a kid from Cornell, but since the non-targets have done a better job of surviving the recession, the target school system is losing some spots. By banking standards, 3.5 in Econ at Cornell has become a bit subpar when you are competing against Math majors with 3.7s.
Also, it is a tough economy for FT recruiting. Maybe this is a good time to readjust your expectations and look for work at an F500 firm.
Work hard, play hard.
IlliniProgrammer wrote: I
I think there's a lot of damage being done to the target school system most banks have by us non-target folks.
Just submitted a 3.99 GPA from a kid studying engineering at a Top 20 US News Engineering school (non-target). His resume is now on our head trader's desk and he is looking at a first-round interview. Five years ago, he would have been beaten out by a kid from Cornell, but since the non-targets have done a better job of surviving the recession, the target school system is losing spots.
You were a bad fit for Cornell. They never should have accepted you. The Cornellians I know are some of the least entitled, least presumptuous Ivy Leaguers out there. You would have been a much better fit for Art History at Brown.
Really? The cornellians I know all have massive insecurities about being at Cornell and not getting into a better ivy and then try to put down all other schools by acting like their ivy status inherently makes them better than schools like Northwestern. The title of this thread kind of confirms that. Instead of saying at target schools he limited it to ivy schools thus excluding other targets that are likely at least as targeted as cornel.
bears1208 wrote: Really? The
Really? The cornellians I know all have massive insecurities about being at Cornell and not getting into a better ivy and then try to put down all other schools by acting like their ivy status inherently makes them better than schools like Northwestern. The title of this thread kind of confirms that. Instead of saying at target schools he limited it to ivy schools thus excluding other targets that are likely at least as targeted as cornel.
I know a bunch of Cornell Engineers. They're all pretty cool guys and fun to hang out with. They can talk about Yuengling and college football all day long, or tell jokes about circuits. They DON'T talk about spending lots of money on stupid stuff, they DON'T enjoy hanging out at the Cornell/Yale/Harvard club, and they fit well into our group of state school engineers.
I dunno. My experience is that the Arrogance/Intellect quotient is lower than nearly every other Ivy. Slightly higher denominator, much lower numerator. It is much more consistent with that of UChicago, Northwestern, and Michigan than that of Brown, Columbia, or Dartmouth. When is Cornell going to leave the Ivies and join the Big Ten?
Work hard, play hard.
IlliniProgrammer
Really? The cornellians I know all have massive insecurities about being at Cornell and not getting into a better ivy and then try to put down all other schools by acting like their ivy status inherently makes them better than schools like Northwestern. The title of this thread kind of confirms that. Instead of saying at target schools he limited it to ivy schools thus excluding other targets that are likely at least as targeted as cornel.
I know a bunch of Cornell Engineers. They're all pretty cool guys and fun to hang out with. They can talk about Yuengling and college football all day long, or tell jokes about circuits. They DON'T talk about spending lots of money on stupid stuff, they DON'T enjoy hanging out at the Cornell/Yale/Harvard club, and they fit well into our group of state school engineers.
Cornellians are some of the least pretentious Ivy Leaguers I've met. If the Big Ten became the Big Thirteen, Cornell would be an excellent fit. They're as chill as Northwestern- maybe even UMich.
I dunno. My experience is that the Arrogance/Intellect quotient is lower than nearly every other Ivy. Slightly higher denominator, much lower numerator.
I don't know any engineers from Cornell, or very many engineers at all, so maybe that's the difference.
bears1208 wrote: I don't know
I don't know any engineers from Cornell, or very many engineers at all, so maybe that's the difference.
We get a lot of them in S&T. Cornell has a really strong top ten engineering program, but they identify themselves as engineers first and you have to press some of them to admit they went to school at Cornell. ("Where'd you study engineering?" "Yeah, I went to a small school upstate." Oh really? Where? "Ehhh, Ithaca." Which school in Ithaca? "Uhhhhhhhh (hushed and uncomfortable) Cornell") It's like they're practically embarassed of having gone to an Ivy League or a private school or something.
I am crassly proud of the fact that I went to a Big Ten school and that my football team can beat your football team (unless you went to Northwestern or Wisconsin in which case I hate you.) Cornell Engineers, OTOH, are practically embarassed that they went to school there.
I've met a few liberal arts majors from Cornell. Most are pretty chill. Although one of them did tell me his SAT scores, GPA, status as captain of a varsity sports team, what he could bench, and that he was TAing a 300-level course in the first fifteen minutes I met him (this was outside of an interview or networking event). I guess there are a few rotten apples in every bunch and the kid didn't seem that bright given he was bragging about playing sports at an Ivy. :D
Work hard, play hard.
LOLOLOLOL toooo much fail in
LOLOLOLOL toooo much fail in this thread for me to comment.
"Look, you're my best friend, so don't take this the wrong way. In twenty years, if you're still livin' here, comin' over to my house to watch the Patriots games, still workin' construction, I'll fuckin' kill you. That's not a threat, that's a fact.
Smith3408 wrote: If you say
If you say "like" as anywhere near as often as you write it, then I like totally understand why you like couldn't get hired.
This was my first thought exactly. If you use it this much in text, I can only imagine how much you use it automatically while speaking.
bears1208
I think there's a lot of damage being done to the target school system most banks have by us non-target folks.
Just submitted a 3.99 GPA from a kid studying engineering at a Top 20 US News Engineering school (non-target). His resume is now on our head trader's desk and he is looking at a first-round interview. Five years ago, he would have been beaten out by a kid from Cornell, but since the non-targets have done a better job of surviving the recession, the target school system is losing spots.
You were a bad fit for Cornell. They never should have accepted you. The Cornellians I know are some of the least entitled, least presumptuous Ivy Leaguers out there. You would have been a much better fit for Art History at Brown.
Really? The cornellians I know all have massive insecurities about being at Cornell and not getting into a better ivy and then try to put down all other schools by acting like their ivy status inherently makes them better than schools like Northwestern. The title of this thread kind of confirms that. Instead of saying at target schools he limited it to ivy schools thus excluding other targets that are likely at least as targeted as cornel.
Cornell kids are extremely insecure. They all got dinged at the other ivies and having to live in ithaca exacerbates their misery.
IlliniProgrammer
I don't know any engineers from Cornell, or very many engineers at all, so maybe that's the difference.
We get a lot of them in S&T. Cornell has a really strong top ten engineering program, but they identify themselves as engineers first and you have to press some of them to admit they went to school at Cornell. ("Where'd you study engineering?" "Yeah, I went to a small school upstate." Oh really? Where? "Ehhh, Ithaca." Which school in Ithaca? "Uhhhhhhhh (hushed and uncomfortable) Cornell") It's like they're practically embarassed of having gone to an Ivy League or a private school or something.
I am crassly proud of the fact that I went to a Big Ten school and that my football team can beat your football team (unless you went to Northwestern or Wisconsin in which case I hate you.) Cornell Engineers, OTOH, are practically embarassed that they went to school there.
I've met a few liberal arts majors from Cornell. Most are pretty chill. Although one of them did tell me his SAT scores, GPA, status as captain of a varsity sports team, what he could bench, and that he was TAing a 300-level course in the first fifteen minutes I met him (this was outside of an interview or networking event). I guess there are a few rotten apples in every bunch and the kid didn't seem that bright given he was bragging about playing sports at an Ivy. :D
IP, let's be honest... Illinois, until their recent resurgence had a tough enough time beating Indiana, let alone the rest of the Big Ten schools. That being said, the Illini fans that have come up to tailgate in Happy Valley have always been gracious and fun guests... Gotta love the Big Ten camaraderie... It makes me smile that we are taking more and more jobs from the "Ivy elite"...
"In summary, people are morons and who cares. Make a shit ton of money. I've never seen a Ferrari paid for by what people think." - ANT
What's up with all the ivy
What's up with all the ivy league bashing and hate? What did we do to you guys?
rufiolove
I don't know any engineers from Cornell, or very many engineers at all, so maybe that's the difference.
We get a lot of them in S&T. Cornell has a really strong top ten engineering program, but they identify themselves as engineers first and you have to press some of them to admit they went to school at Cornell. ("Where'd you study engineering?" "Yeah, I went to a small school upstate." Oh really? Where? "Ehhh, Ithaca." Which school in Ithaca? "Uhhhhhhhh (hushed and uncomfortable) Cornell") It's like they're practically embarassed of having gone to an Ivy League or a private school or something.
I am crassly proud of the fact that I went to a Big Ten school and that my football team can beat your football team (unless you went to Northwestern or Wisconsin in which case I hate you.) Cornell Engineers, OTOH, are practically embarassed that they went to school there.
I've met a few liberal arts majors from Cornell. Most are pretty chill. Although one of them did tell me his SAT scores, GPA, status as captain of a varsity sports team, what he could bench, and that he was TAing a 300-level course in the first fifteen minutes I met him (this was outside of an interview or networking event). I guess there are a few rotten apples in every bunch and the kid didn't seem that bright given he was bragging about playing sports at an Ivy. :D
IP, let's be honest... Illinois, until their recent resurgence had a tough enough time beating Indiana, let alone the rest of the Big Ten schools. That being said, the Illini fans that have come up to tailgate in Happy Valley have always been gracious and fun guests... Gotta love the Big Ten camaraderie... It makes me smile that we are taking more and more jobs from the "Ivy elite"...
I'm pretty sure Illinois has always had trouble being anything but mediocre, they had roughly one good year in recent memory.
I don't think people realize
I don't think people realize that networking is THE MOST important part of getting a job (far more important than technicals or brainteasers, those are the easy parts...)
Even if you have an impressive resume, it's one resume in a stack of ~300 to ~500 for every OCR job at a target (heard this straight from several recruiters).
They give out first rounds to 10-20 people, then second rounds to ~1/3rd of those, and end up hiring maybe ~3-5.
The hardest part is going from the resume drop to getting a 1st round interview, at which point your chances are significantly improved... talk to alums, frat brothers, family friends, etc... talk to ANALYSTS because analysts from your alma mater (or in the case of non-Ivys, they have a non-core school resume team too) will be weeding out the resumes. The best way to get an interview is to have an analyst pass your resume straight through to the "interview" pile without having to pass through the resume gauntlet.
Once you get the interview, it's all a game of numbers--assuming that you're a reasonably-qualified candidate.
Solidarity wrote: I don't
I don't think people realize that networking is THE MOST important part of getting a job (far more important than technicals or brainteasers, those are the easy parts...)
Even if you have an impressive resume, it's one resume in a stack of ~300 to ~500 for every OCR job at a target (heard this straight from several recruiters).
They give out first rounds to 10-20 people, then second rounds to ~1/3rd of those, and end up hiring maybe ~3-5.
The hardest part is going from the resume drop to getting a 1st round interview, at which point your chances are significantly improved... talk to alums, frat brothers, family friends, etc... talk to ANALYSTS because analysts from your alma mater (or in the case of non-Ivys, they have a non-core school resume team too) will be weeding out the resumes. The best way to get an interview is to have an analyst pass your resume straight through to the "interview" pile without having to pass through the resume gauntlet.
Once you get the interview, it's all a game of numbers--assuming that you're a reasonably-qualified candidate.
I think networking can be quite important for banking jobs. But for hedge funds, private equity, and prop trading, I'm not quite sure it matters that much. Usually companies like Citadel/DE Shaw/Jane Street, etc., could care less who you know. They want smart kids with high gpa's in quant majors, who can rock the technical questions during the interviews.
Brady4MVP wrote: What's up
What's up with all the ivy league bashing and hate? What did we do to you guys?
LOL Brady. The problem is the arrogance/intellect quotient. You get to be arrogant if you're smart, driven, and accomplished. This category is typically reserved for Princeton/Harvard/Chicago physics/math majors, MIT, Stanford, CMU, and Berkeley engineers, and the like.
If you are a liberal arts major from an Ivy League school, you probably don't make the cut. The goal here is not to put down Ivy Leaguers; merely to put the more arrogant ones in their place in light of who's getting placed on the street, who's doing well in the interviews, and who's doing well in the US News rankings.
I'm pretty sure Illinois has always had trouble being anything but mediocre, they had roughly one good year in recent memory.
Sure, but our band could beat Cornell's or UPenn's football team.
Cornell kids are extremely insecure. They all got dinged at the other ivies and having to live in ithaca exacerbates their misery.
Do you really want to go there?
Cornell, UPenn, and the other "lesser" Ivies are great schools with a lot of smart people. Just like Michigan and Penn State. You should be proud to have gone to school there.
Work hard, play hard.
IlliniProgrammer
What's up with all the ivy league bashing and hate? What did we do to you guys?
LOL Brady. The problem is the arrogance/intellect quotient. You get to be arrogant if you're smart, driven, and accomplished. This category is typically reserved for Princeton/Harvard/Chicago physics/math majors, MIT, Stanford, CMU, and Berkeley engineers, and the like.
If you are a liberal arts major from an Ivy League school, you probably don't make the cut. The goal here is not to put down Ivy Leaguers; merely to put the more arrogant ones in their place in light of who's getting placed on the street, who's doing well in the interviews, and who's doing well in the US News rankings.
I'm pretty sure Illinois has always had trouble being anything but mediocre, they had roughly one good year in recent memory.
Sure, but our band could beat Cornell's or UPenn's football team.
Cornell kids are extremely insecure. They all got dinged at the other ivies and having to live in ithaca exacerbates their misery.
Do you really want to go there?
Cornell, UPenn, and the other "lesser" Ivies are great schools with a lot of smart people. Just like Michigan and Penn State. You should be proud to have gone to school there.
Plenty of really smart kids go to ivies and study liberal arts because that's what they want to study. On average, do I think a math major at harvard is smarter than an english major at brown? Yes. But I was never one to believe that engineering or the hard sciences have a monopoly on smart accomplished people.
Hell, at an Ivy/target, your
Hell, at an Ivy/target, your ROIC on networking will be fucking incredible compared to a non-target. If a kid from my school with a 3.5+ in econ/stats/math/finance, 2200+, and a demonstrated interest in finance took the initiative to network me 3 months before recruiting season, hell yea I'm telling HR to give him an interview.
I think networking can be quite important for banking jobs. But for hedge funds, private equity, and prop trading, I'm not quite sure it matters that much. Usually companies like Citadel/DE Shaw/Jane Street, etc., could care less who you know. They want smart kids with high gpa's in quant majors, who can rock the technical questions during the interviews.
My point holds true for a lot of PE and more fundamental, value-oriented HF's as well. And ceteris paribus, a guy who networks still stands a better chance of landing a job at DE or Jane Street
Brady4MVP wrote: Plenty of
Plenty of really smart kids go to ivies and study liberal arts because that's what they want to study. On average, do I think a math major at harvard is smarter than an english major at brown? Yes. But I was never one to believe that engineering or the hard sciences have a monopoly on smart accomplished people.
A physics major spends about 80% of college solving calculus and stats problems between his math, physics, and engineering courses. I am not convinced that the liberal arts teach the same discipline of focus and offer an equivalent set of professional competencies when you oscillate between Modern Latin American History and Cognitive Psych.
If you love liberal arts, that's great, but it's almost more of a hobby than a discipline. I wish colleges taught hang gliding as a major- I would have been all over that especially if I had parents willing to pay for it.
Work hard, play hard.
Solidarity wrote: My point
My point holds true for a lot of PE and more fundamental, value-oriented HF's as well. And ceteris paribus, a guy who networks still stands a better job of land at DE or Jane Street
It's always good to know somebody who can get you an interview, but in trading much more emphasis is placed upon personality and technical skill. A lot of quants and traders are INTJs who (A) find networkers incredibly annoying and really don't want to work with those folks and (B) eat what they kill and expect others to do the same.
I want to see a kid who's not exactly a networker but who's got a certain level of technical skill, work ethic, and bravery/toughness. And to be fair, it's a lot easier to test the bravery/toughness in a kid who started the game late than started it early.
Work hard, play hard.
IlliniProgrammer
Plenty of really smart kids go to ivies and study liberal arts because that's what they want to study. On average, do I think a math major at harvard is smarter than an english major at brown? Yes. But I was never one to believe that engineering or the hard sciences have a monopoly on smart accomplished people.
A physics major spends about 80% of college solving calculus and stats problems between his math, physics, and engineering courses. I am not convinced that the liberal arts teach the same discipline of focus and offer an equivalent set of professional competencies when you oscillate between Modern Latin American History and Cognitive Psych.
If you love liberal arts, that's great, but it's almost more of a hobby than a discipline. I wish colleges taught hang gliding as a major- I would have been all over that especially if I had parents willing to pay for it.
I agree that hard sciences is more rigorous than liberal arts. That's not in dispute. I'm merely saying that there's plenty of really smart kids at ivies who major in liberal arts because they enjoy studying it and/or want to pursue a Phd or go to law school.
Anyways, I don't want this to devolve into a pissing contest on big 10 vs Ivies since that's obviously what you want.
Brady4MVP wrote: I agree that
I agree that hard sciences is more rigorous than liberal arts. That's not in dispute. I'm merely saying that there's plenty of really smart kids at ivies who major in liberal arts because they enjoy studying it and/or want to pursue a Phd or go to law school.
Absolutely. There's a lot of smart folks in the liberal arts programs. I know you're fairly intelligent if you have a 3.8 GPA from UPenn. But it doesn't give me the same level of information about your analytical toolkit, mental toughness and discipline of focus that a 3.8 GPA in physics from a top 100 school gives me.
Anyways, I don't want this to devolve into a pissing contest on big 10 vs Ivies since that's obviously what you want.
It's not really a pissing contest Brady. And it's not so much Big Ten as it is non-target schools having a lot of easily identifiable outperformers that have been getting ignored for a long time. That is *starting* to change.
Work hard, play hard.
IlliniProgrammer
I agree that hard sciences is more rigorous than liberal arts. That's not in dispute. I'm merely saying that there's plenty of really smart kids at ivies who major in liberal arts because they enjoy studying it and/or want to pursue a Phd or go to law school.
Absolutely. There's a lot of smart folks in the liberal arts programs. I know you're fairly intelligent if you have a 3.8 GPA from UPenn. But it doesn't give me the same level of information about mental toughness and discipline of focus that a 3.8 GPA in physics from any halfway decent school gives me.
Anyways, I don't want this to devolve into a pissing contest on big 10 vs Ivies since that's obviously what you want.
It's not really a pissing contest Brady. And it's not so much Big Ten as it is non-target schools having a lot of easily identifiable outperformers that have been getting ignored for a long time. That is *starting* to change.
Illini, in every discussion that remotely involves schools or recruiting, you manage to turn it into a propaganda for the midwest and big 10 schools and love bashing the "entitled" ivy kids. The fact of the matter is, most ivy students come from middle-class backgrounds and are your typical smart studios kids. Don't let the stereotypical preppy lacrosse playing douchebag give you a false impression of the ivies.
Here in Chicago, I have heard so much ivy bashing. And I do believe that it stems from jealousy and insecurity.
Anyways, gotta study for the series 56 exam.
Brady4MVP wrote: Illini, in
Illini, in every discussion that remotely involves schools or recruiting, you manage to turn it into a propaganda for the midwest and big 10 schools and love bashing the "entitled" ivy kids. The fact of the matter is, most ivy students come from middle-class backgrounds and are your typical smart studios kids. Don't let the stereotypical preppy lacrosse playing douchebag give you a false impression of the ivies.
It doesn't. I have no problem with people who went to target schools. The problem is when folks think that going to target school X entitles them to something or makes them special.
Here in Chicago, I have heard so much ivy bashing. And I do believe that it stems from jealousy and insecurity.
Nobody is bashing the Ivies. Chicagoans are very sensitive to the arrogance/skill quotient, with particular regard to the numerator. UChicago and Northwestern are in the same boat as many Ivies, but they follow a different culture. If you don't think your school makes you special, the bashing stops. Notre Dame on the other hand thinks they have an amazing football team but it keeps losing, so Chicagoans like to laugh about that too. Marquette thinks that they're the best Catholic school in the country, which we also make fun of. It is the same story over and over where somebody thinks they're special, annoys a bunch of Chicagoans, and gets clobbered for it. You are not being singled out so much for the jealousy as much as the fact that, like Notre Dame, you're not as special as you claim to be. (Unsurprisingly, Notre Dame fans brush it off as jealousy when we laugh at them for another losing season and wear ties from our sports teams the day after they beat ND, and Marquetters get annoyed and start claiming jealousy when we point out that they're #90 in the rankings vs. Michigan's ~35.)
Chicago is a smaller town than New York where a little more community comes with a little more accountability. We get hit by tornadoes, blizzards, and all kinds of other stuff every year, and we've learned a healthy respect for man's limitations. And rumors about our education notwithstanding, we've also read the stories about Icharus and Arachne. So if you're going to claim that you've got something really special and amazing, Chicagoans and Midwesterners in general are going to call you on that hubris, or at the very least see if you've got the skills to back it up. That's just how the culture works out there.
Take your number, do your thing, and don't pretend you or anything about you is all that special- otherwise somebody with more skill and humility than you is going to come along and have some fun at your expense.
Work hard, play hard.
Brady4MVP
I agree that hard sciences is more rigorous than liberal arts. That's not in dispute. I'm merely saying that there's plenty of really smart kids at ivies who major in liberal arts because they enjoy studying it and/or want to pursue a Phd or go to law school.
Absolutely. There's a lot of smart folks in the liberal arts programs. I know you're fairly intelligent if you have a 3.8 GPA from UPenn. But it doesn't give me the same level of information about mental toughness and discipline of focus that a 3.8 GPA in physics from any halfway decent school gives me.
Anyways, I don't want this to devolve into a pissing contest on big 10 vs Ivies since that's obviously what you want.
It's not really a pissing contest Brady. And it's not so much Big Ten as it is non-target schools having a lot of easily identifiable outperformers that have been getting ignored for a long time. That is *starting* to change.
Illini, in every discussion that remotely involves schools or recruiting, you manage to turn it into a propaganda for the midwest and big 10 schools and love bashing the "entitled" ivy kids. The fact of the matter is, most ivy students come from middle-class backgrounds and are your typical smart studios kids. Don't let the stereotypical preppy lacrosse playing douchebag give you a false impression of the ivies.
Here in Chicago, I have heard so much ivy bashing. And I do believe that it stems from jealousy and insecurity.
Anyways, gotta study for the series 56 exam.
IMO, people don't "bash" the ivies in the midwest. The problem is the way a lot of the ivy kids act. The problem is the the fact that so many Cornell/Dartmouth/Brown kids act like their shit don't stink because they go to an ivy but that Northwestern and Michigan kids are somehow below them because of it. It's this type of arrogance that gets people to say shitty things about the schools in general. Like you said earlier, a lot of Cornell kids are really insecure. Whereas a kid from a good midwestern school like Notre Dame/Northwestern/Michigan/Wustl tend to be much more secure and don't bullshit. That's where some of that divide comes from, IMO. I know a lot of really chill kids who go to ivies, but i've also known many who wanted to tell me their SAT score and how they could have gotten into Harvard but chose Brown for quality of life.
bears1208 wrote: Brady4MVP
I agree that hard sciences is more rigorous than liberal arts. That's not in dispute. I'm merely saying that there's plenty of really smart kids at ivies who major in liberal arts because they enjoy studying it and/or want to pursue a Phd or go to law school.
Absolutely. There's a lot of smart folks in the liberal arts programs. I know you're fairly intelligent if you have a 3.8 GPA from UPenn. But it doesn't give me the same level of information about mental toughness and discipline of focus that a 3.8 GPA in physics from any halfway decent school gives me.
Anyways, I don't want this to devolve into a pissing contest on big 10 vs Ivies since that's obviously what you want.
It's not really a pissing contest Brady. And it's not so much Big Ten as it is non-target schools having a lot of easily identifiable outperformers that have been getting ignored for a long time. That is *starting* to change.
Illini, in every discussion that remotely involves schools or recruiting, you manage to turn it into a propaganda for the midwest and big 10 schools and love bashing the "entitled" ivy kids. The fact of the matter is, most ivy students come from middle-class backgrounds and are your typical smart studios kids. Don't let the stereotypical preppy lacrosse playing douchebag give you a false impression of the ivies.
Here in Chicago, I have heard so much ivy bashing. And I do believe that it stems from jealousy and insecurity.
Anyways, gotta study for the series 56 exam.
IMO, people don't "bash" the ivies in the midwest. The problem is the way a lot of the ivy kids act. The problem is the the fact that so many Cornell/Dartmouth/Brown kids act like their shit don't stink because they go to an ivy but that Northwestern and Michigan kids are somehow below them because of it. It's this type of arrogance that gets people to say shitty things about the schools in general. Like you said earlier, a lot of Cornell kids are really insecure. Whereas a kid from a good midwestern school like Notre Dame/Northwestern/Michigan/Wustl tend to be much more secure and don't bullshit. That's where some of that divide comes from, IMO. I know a lot of really chill kids who go to ivies, but i've also known many who wanted to tell me their SAT score and how they could have gotten into Harvard but chose Brown for quality of life.
Nice grammar. Also, what's wrong with choosing to go to Brown over Harvard? Believe it or not, some people don't think Harvard is the be all end all. Some people have other interests besides banking and think brown is a better fit.
I chose Cornell over Brown, Dartmouth, Northwestern, UPenn CAS, Northwestern etc. I in no way feel insecure and I know I go to a great school. However, I do not think it will be the reason I will get a job. The OP wasn't qualified so that's why he didn't get a job. 3.5 in econ at any school (besides UChicago) is crap. I have a 3.7+ in econ and even that isn't good.
Anyway, don't lump people together. I don't know many people who are insecure about going to Cornell.
"Look, you're my best friend, so don't take this the wrong way. In twenty years, if you're still livin' here, comin' over to my house to watch the Patriots games, still workin' construction, I'll fuckin' kill you. That's not a threat, that's a fact.
Will Hunting
I agree that hard sciences is more rigorous than liberal arts. That's not in dispute. I'm merely saying that there's plenty of really smart kids at ivies who major in liberal arts because they enjoy studying it and/or want to pursue a Phd or go to law school.
Absolutely. There's a lot of smart folks in the liberal arts programs. I know you're fairly intelligent if you have a 3.8 GPA from UPenn. But it doesn't give me the same level of information about mental toughness and discipline of focus that a 3.8 GPA in physics from any halfway decent school gives me.
Anyways, I don't want this to devolve into a pissing contest on big 10 vs Ivies since that's obviously what you want.
It's not really a pissing contest Brady. And it's not so much Big Ten as it is non-target schools having a lot of easily identifiable outperformers that have been getting ignored for a long time. That is *starting* to change.
Illini, in every discussion that remotely involves schools or recruiting, you manage to turn it into a propaganda for the midwest and big 10 schools and love bashing the "entitled" ivy kids. The fact of the matter is, most ivy students come from middle-class backgrounds and are your typical smart studios kids. Don't let the stereotypical preppy lacrosse playing douchebag give you a false impression of the ivies.
Here in Chicago, I have heard so much ivy bashing. And I do believe that it stems from jealousy and insecurity.
Anyways, gotta study for the series 56 exam.
IMO, people don't "bash" the ivies in the midwest. The problem is the way a lot of the ivy kids act. The problem is the the fact that so many Cornell/Dartmouth/Brown kids act like their shit don't stink because they go to an ivy but that Northwestern and Michigan kids are somehow below them because of it. It's this type of arrogance that gets people to say shitty things about the schools in general. Like you said earlier, a lot of Cornell kids are really insecure. Whereas a kid from a good midwestern school like Notre Dame/Northwestern/Michigan/Wustl tend to be much more secure and don't bullshit. That's where some of that divide comes from, IMO. I know a lot of really chill kids who go to ivies, but i've also known many who wanted to tell me their SAT score and how they could have gotten into Harvard but chose Brown for quality of life.
Nice grammar. Also, what's wrong with choosing to go to Brown over Harvard? Believe it or not, some people don't think Harvard is the be all end all. Some people have other interests besides banking and think brown is a better fit.
I chose Cornell over Brown, Dartmouth, Northwestern, UPenn CAS, Northwestern etc. I in no way feel insecure and I know I go to a great school. However, I do not think it will be the reason I will get a job. The OP wasn't qualified so that's why he didn't get a job. 3.5 in econ at any school (besides UChicago) is crap. I have a 3.7+ in econ and even that isn't good.
Anyway, don't lump people together. I don't know many people who are insecure about going to Cornell.
Nothing is wrong with choosing Brown over Harvard, feeling the need to make sure others know that you got into Harvard is the problem (and it just smells of desperation and insecurity). But then again, so does being the grammar police on an internet message board. Or being the guy that calls objectively decent grades crap and then tells everyone else his gpa. I could go on.
Must be nice to have OCR
Must be nice to have OCR
'Before you enter... be willing to pay the price'
I don't think non-targets
I don't think non-targets realize how competitive OCR is. Also--and this is to IP--a lot of kids at target schools will say, "I go to school in [state/region]" instead of naming the school when they're around people who graduated from non-targets, so they don't come across as arrogant.
LeoMessi wrote: I don't think
I don't think non-targets realize how competitive OCR is. Also--and this is to IP--a lot of kids at target schools will say, "I go to school in [state/region]" instead of naming the school when they're around people who graduated from non-targets, so they don't come across as arrogant.
I don't care how competitive OCR is. The point is that you actually get a first round, you get a chance however 'slim' it is, non-targets have to work 2x-5x-10x-20x times whatever the hell it is harder to even get that chance that 5/10 times never comes anyway. Don't be ignorant of recruiting reality.
'Before you enter... be willing to pay the price'
Edit: I can't write anything
Edit: I can't write anything coherent, but you're wrong.
'Before you enter... be willing to pay the price'
bears1208 wrote: Will
I agree that hard sciences is more rigorous than liberal arts. That's not in dispute. I'm merely saying that there's plenty of really smart kids at ivies who major in liberal arts because they enjoy studying it and/or want to pursue a Phd or go to law school.
Absolutely. There's a lot of smart folks in the liberal arts programs. I know you're fairly intelligent if you have a 3.8 GPA from UPenn. But it doesn't give me the same level of information about mental toughness and discipline of focus that a 3.8 GPA in physics from any halfway decent school gives me.
Anyways, I don't want this to devolve into a pissing contest on big 10 vs Ivies since that's obviously what you want.
It's not really a pissing contest Brady. And it's not so much Big Ten as it is non-target schools having a lot of easily identifiable outperformers that have been getting ignored for a long time. That is *starting* to change.
Illini, in every discussion that remotely involves schools or recruiting, you manage to turn it into a propaganda for the midwest and big 10 schools and love bashing the "entitled" ivy kids. The fact of the matter is, most ivy students come from middle-class backgrounds and are your typical smart studios kids. Don't let the stereotypical preppy lacrosse playing douchebag give you a false impression of the ivies.
Here in Chicago, I have heard so much ivy bashing. And I do believe that it stems from jealousy and insecurity.
Anyways, gotta study for the series 56 exam.
IMO, people don't "bash" the ivies in the midwest. The problem is the way a lot of the ivy kids act. The problem is the the fact that so many Cornell/Dartmouth/Brown kids act like their shit don't stink because they go to an ivy but that Northwestern and Michigan kids are somehow below them because of it. It's this type of arrogance that gets people to say shitty things about the schools in general. Like you said earlier, a lot of Cornell kids are really insecure. Whereas a kid from a good midwestern school like Notre Dame/Northwestern/Michigan/Wustl tend to be much more secure and don't bullshit. That's where some of that divide comes from, IMO. I know a lot of really chill kids who go to ivies, but i've also known many who wanted to tell me their SAT score and how they could have gotten into Harvard but chose Brown for quality of life.
Nice grammar. Also, what's wrong with choosing to go to Brown over Harvard? Believe it or not, some people don't think Harvard is the be all end all. Some people have other interests besides banking and think brown is a better fit.
I chose Cornell over Brown, Dartmouth, Northwestern, UPenn CAS, Northwestern etc. I in no way feel insecure and I know I go to a great school. However, I do not think it will be the reason I will get a job. The OP wasn't qualified so that's why he didn't get a job. 3.5 in econ at any school (besides UChicago) is crap. I have a 3.7+ in econ and even that isn't good.
Anyway, don't lump people together. I don't know many people who are insecure about going to Cornell.
Nothing is wrong with choosing Brown over Harvard, feeling the need to make sure others know that you got into Harvard is the problem (and it just smells of desperation and insecurity). But then again, so does being the grammar police on an internet message board. Or being the guy that calls objectively decent grades crap and then tells everyone else his gpa. I could go on.
You could go on but you would continually not make sense. I said my 3.7 was absolutely nothing special for WALL STREET recruiting at an Ivy. So why should this kid think his 3.5 with no internship experience will get him a job. That's what I was saying. Sorry you didn't understand that.
"Look, you're my best friend, so don't take this the wrong way. In twenty years, if you're still livin' here, comin' over to my house to watch the Patriots games, still workin' construction, I'll fuckin' kill you. That's not a threat, that's a fact.
Will Hunting
I agree that hard sciences is more rigorous than liberal arts. That's not in dispute. I'm merely saying that there's plenty of really smart kids at ivies who major in liberal arts because they enjoy studying it and/or want to pursue a Phd or go to law school.
Absolutely. There's a lot of smart folks in the liberal arts programs. I know you're fairly intelligent if you have a 3.8 GPA from UPenn. But it doesn't give me the same level of information about mental toughness and discipline of focus that a 3.8 GPA in physics from any halfway decent school gives me.
Anyways, I don't want this to devolve into a pissing contest on big 10 vs Ivies since that's obviously what you want.
It's not really a pissing contest Brady. And it's not so much Big Ten as it is non-target schools having a lot of easily identifiable outperformers that have been getting ignored for a long time. That is *starting* to change.
Illini, in every discussion that remotely involves schools or recruiting, you manage to turn it into a propaganda for the midwest and big 10 schools and love bashing the "entitled" ivy kids. The fact of the matter is, most ivy students come from middle-class backgrounds and are your typical smart studios kids. Don't let the stereotypical preppy lacrosse playing douchebag give you a false impression of the ivies.
Here in Chicago, I have heard so much ivy bashing. And I do believe that it stems from jealousy and insecurity.
Anyways, gotta study for the series 56 exam.
IMO, people don't "bash" the ivies in the midwest. The problem is the way a lot of the ivy kids act. The problem is the the fact that so many Cornell/Dartmouth/Brown kids act like their shit don't stink because they go to an ivy but that Northwestern and Michigan kids are somehow below them because of it. It's this type of arrogance that gets people to say shitty things about the schools in general. Like you said earlier, a lot of Cornell kids are really insecure. Whereas a kid from a good midwestern school like Notre Dame/Northwestern/Michigan/Wustl tend to be much more secure and don't bullshit. That's where some of that divide comes from, IMO. I know a lot of really chill kids who go to ivies, but i've also known many who wanted to tell me their SAT score and how they could have gotten into Harvard but chose Brown for quality of life.
Nice grammar. Also, what's wrong with choosing to go to Brown over Harvard? Believe it or not, some people don't think Harvard is the be all end all. Some people have other interests besides banking and think brown is a better fit.
I chose Cornell over Brown, Dartmouth, Northwestern, UPenn CAS, Northwestern etc. I in no way feel insecure and I know I go to a great school. However, I do not think it will be the reason I will get a job. The OP wasn't qualified so that's why he didn't get a job. 3.5 in econ at any school (besides UChicago) is crap. I have a 3.7+ in econ and even that isn't good.
Anyway, don't lump people together. I don't know many people who are insecure about going to Cornell.
Nothing is wrong with choosing Brown over Harvard, feeling the need to make sure others know that you got into Harvard is the problem (and it just smells of desperation and insecurity). But then again, so does being the grammar police on an internet message board. Or being the guy that calls objectively decent grades crap and then tells everyone else his gpa. I could go on.
You could go on but you would continually not make sense. I said my 3.7 was absolutely nothing special for WALL STREET recruiting at an Ivy. So why should this kid think his 3.5 with no internship experience will get him a job. That's what I was saying. Sorry you didn't understand that.
Actually, uhhh, you may want to reread what you wrote. Man, this is getting a little embarrassing for you.