Want the Secrets to Succeed on Wall Street?

(King Kong, 1,042

Points)

on 2/21/12 at 9:25am

Definitely need more "moral" values to combat poverty... Taliban style... it worked well in Afghanistan, I'm sure it can work well in the US of A!

Seriously though...

Poor working class / less educated men have a harder time supporting a family, therefore fewer families... more bastard children, etc... demonising them through some "moral decay" rhetoric and blaming them for their poverty isn't useful to understand the trend, nor is it useful to better their socio-economic condition... I don't see how one could argue the causation flows the other way around...

I do see how having a strong family and social network can protect one against shocks in their career, etc... though, I'm not sure that's the point Murray is trying to make and it is of less value when the lack of opportunities for the lower classes is systemic.

Charles Murray is a fraud.

http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/small/0904/chill-out...

(Almost Human, 8,063

Points)

on 2/21/12 at 10:22am

Charles Murray is a fraud.

UFOinsider wrote: Charles

(King Kong, 1,414

Points)

on 2/21/12 at 10:23am

UFOinsider:

Charles Murray is a fraud.

This. Dumb book. Dumber thesis.

"Social cohesion and puritanical morality place roughly on my list of concerns between whether I'll pick up jock itch at the gym this week (not likely, since I don't go the gym) and whether it'll rain in Christchurch, New Zealand next Tuesday."
-Eddie

My view is that at least 40%

(Almost Human, 7,625

Points)

on 2/21/12 at 10:25am

My view is that at least 40% of the country is capable of doing calculus. If you can do calculus, you can be a competent STEM person, and competent STEM guys create and maintain middle-class jobs.

So I think a lot of the social stratification we are seeing today is unnatural.

Work hard, play hard.

Society is no better or worse

blackrainn IB

(Orangutan, 274

Points)

on 2/21/12 at 10:59am

Society is no better or worse off than it has been for millenia, this is nothing new.

Quote: My view is that at

Points)

on 2/21/12 at 12:26pm

My view is that at least 40% of the country is capable of doing calculus. If you can do calculus, you can be a competent STEM person, and competent STEM guys create and maintain middle-class jobs.

Disagree.

"Doing" calculus is not the same as innovating. I doubt more than 15% of the US population has the ability to innovate at even a medium level.

Creating patents is dominated by high IQ scientists/engineers more now than any time in our history. Real technology innovation is dominated by 98th percentile or above. Steve Hsu's blog Information Processing goes over the data.

The level of bastardization

Points)

on 2/21/12 at 12:27pm

The level of bastardization in this country is downright disturbing and foreshadows some terrible demographic realities down the road.

PetEng wrote: Quote: My view

(Almost Human, 7,625

Points)

on 2/21/12 at 1:30pm

PetEng:

My view is that at least 40% of the country is capable of doing calculus. If you can do calculus, you can be a competent STEM person, and competent STEM guys create and maintain middle-class jobs.

Disagree.

"Doing" calculus is not the same as innovating. I doubt more than 15% of the US population has the ability to innovate at even a medium level.

Innovating is only about 10% of the value. The other 90% is perspiration. That is something anyone with work ethic and basic math skills can do.

Work hard, play hard.

IlliniProgrammer

Whgm45 ST

(Baboon, 123

Points)

on 2/21/12 at 1:37pm

IlliniProgrammer:

PetEng:

My view is that at least 40% of the country is capable of doing calculus. If you can do calculus, you can be a competent STEM person, and competent STEM guys create and maintain middle-class jobs.

Disagree.

"Doing" calculus is not the same as innovating. I doubt more than 15% of the US population has the ability to innovate at even a medium level.

Innovating is only about 10% of the value. The other 90% is perspiration. That is something anyone with work ethic and basic math skills can do.

This. How many of us actually innovate at our jobs, creating new processes, technology, or ways of thinking? Not everyone can be a visionary

Whgm45

http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/small/0904/chill-out...

(Almost Human, 8,063

Points)

on 2/21/12 at 1:42pm

Whgm45:

IlliniProgrammer:

PetEng:

My view is that at least 40% of the country is capable of doing calculus. If you can do calculus, you can be a competent STEM person, and competent STEM guys create and maintain middle-class jobs.

Disagree.

"Doing" calculus is not the same as innovating. I doubt more than 15% of the US population has the ability to innovate at even a medium level.

Innovating is only about 10% of the value. The other 90% is perspiration. That is something anyone with work ethic and basic math skills can do.

This. How many of us actually innovate at our jobs, creating new processes, technology, or ways of thinking? Not everyone can be a visionary

Sort of. People on this site take very extreme views and then split hairs and atoms to justify them, but the reality is that the average person is capable of some level of innovation and hard work, and does so. Will everyone do IBD or create the next facebook, obviously not. But that doesn't translate into the majority of people being worthless either.

UFOinsider wrote: Charles

West Coast rainmaker

(Senior Gorilla, 901

Points)

on 2/21/12 at 5:32pm

UFOinsider:

Charles Murray is a fraud.

Not going to argue it- most info-tainment books are sensationalistic. But they at least get the public interested in a problem.

PetEng:

The level of bastardization in this country is downright disturbing and foreshadows some terrible demographic realities down the road.

I think this was the point Murray was trying to make, among others. I am not promoting American Exceptionalism nor the validity of only one family structure, but single parent homes are usually less stable. It seems very reasonable that the prevalence of violent crime in certain regional social groups can be traced back to inadequate parental involvement.

I think its more interesting to consider Murray's argument that we have a less industrious and more entitled society. He highlighted how labor force participation lagged within less affluent areas even in boom times, and how we have more "disabled" workers now. What moved us from a society where handouts were taken only as a last resort to the current "wring every cent you can out of the government" culture we have now?

Most people have only basic

(Human, 11,654

Points)

on 2/21/12 at 5:38pm

Most people have only basic intelligence. That wasn't an issue 40-50 years ago because the rest of the world was dirt poor and we have simple manufacturing jobs here. Now the rest of the world has caught up and we don't need dumb people to make stuff.

Unfortunately these people still have a vote. They elect people who give them what they want, instead of the cold truth that they need to fight harder. Much like how fat people keep dreaming of a pill or some magic spell, instead of the painful and miserable dieting and exercise that has work forever now.

America now needs informational workers and educated laborers.

Socialism will rise or totalitarianism. Both will be to placate the poor and un-needed.

We need Rick Santorum. He's

swagon EN

(Neanderthal, 2,819

Points)

on 2/21/12 at 6:01pm

We need Rick Santorum. He's the only guy proposing specific solutions that will save America from certain doom.

Rick wants to ban birth

(Human, 11,654

Points)

on 2/21/12 at 6:07pm

Rick wants to ban birth control. That will only magnify the problem. Women with college degrees and higher income have less than the replacement rate child birth.

The people who this economy cannot use and this country cannot support and the people you want on birth control.

Financial Modeling Training
Guide to Finance Interviews
Banking Resume

One thing I will say is

blackrainn IB

(Orangutan, 274

Points)

on 2/21/12 at 6:19pm

One thing I will say is almost everyone living on this site is in a vacuum. Many are working hard at / graduated from a top 10/15 school (or are busting their butts at "non-targets"), scored 99th percentile+ on their standardized tests, have gotten a degree in something semi-useful (economics, CS, etc.), have some semblance of a family, etc.. The average American makes $38,000ish a year, doesn't have a college degree, scored a 22ish on the ACT, and studies "general studies" or "business" (at a non-target). And that's the average, the bottom 25th percentile isn't looking very good. Just something to remember.

The new economy is an economy where you need to be in the top 15/20% (and ideally the top 10%) of intellect to really compete (and I'm talking intellect on a broad level, whether that be leadership, technical skills, personal skills, etc.) We can take the top 23% of the Chinese population (or the top 10% of China's and India's population) and make them all citizens of the United States.... something to think about.

I think it's time to really start thinking about yourself as a global citizen. I will certainly be teaching my children Chinese / Portuguese.

ANT wrote: Rick wants to ban

swagon EN

(Neanderthal, 2,819

Points)

on 2/21/12 at 6:36pm

ANT:

Rick wants to ban birth control. That will only magnify the problem. Women with college degrees and higher income have less than the replacement rate child birth.

The people who this economy cannot use and this country cannot support and the people you want on birth control.

No, you're wrong. Rick is the only one making any sense and proposing real solutions.

If America banned birth control, along with porn, and if it also passed a constitutional amendment explicitly banning gay marriage, then and only then would America immediately see its national debt wiped away, unemployment drop to 5%, real GDP per capita explode, and world peace.

blackrainn wrote: I will

swagon EN

(Neanderthal, 2,819

Points)

on 2/21/12 at 6:39pm

blackrainn:

I will certainly be teaching my children Chinese / Portuguese.

swagon is on fire!

TheKing PE

(Neanderthal, 3,024

Points)

on 2/21/12 at 6:55pm

swagon is on fire!

Quote: Innovating is only

Points)

on 2/21/12 at 7:34pm

Innovating is only about 10% of the value. The other 90% is perspiration. That is something anyone with work ethic and basic math skills can do.

Patent production is dominated by people who are 98th percentile intellect or above. You can't improve a microchip design with an 80th percentile intellect if your competitors have a 98th percentile intellect. That's why companies like Intel/AMD/Google/Apple/Samsung/Sony stockpile the smartest motherfuckers they can in the high tech game.

You act like getting a job at the R&D department at Intel is easy. It's harder to get into than IBD. Getting a PhD in Computer Engineering or Physics is harder than getting into IBD.

Quote: You act like getting a

(Almost Human, 7,625

Points)

on 2/21/12 at 9:44pm

You act like getting a job at the R&D department at Intel is easy. It's harder to get into than IBD. Getting a PhD in Computer Engineering or Physics is harder than getting into IBD.

LOL, what do you think my degree is in and how many research papers do you think I've published?

Trust me, 90% of the value is still in getting everything down on paper and vetting everything. Anyone who can get a 650Q on the SATs can do that.

Work hard, play hard.

I assume EE/CS and I'm

Points)

on 2/21/12 at 10:41pm

I assume EE/CS and I'm assuming more than one. So?

The probability of writing a STEM paper and/or successfully filing a patent is highly dependent on intellect (and the data shows that).

Before this gets into a

(King Kong, 1,042

Points)

on 2/21/12 at 11:08pm

Before this gets into a pissing contest about who files more patents, CS guys, Maths guys, or the top 1% or the top 5% (excluding the top 1%), etc.... can we recognise that this has nothing to do with:
1 - The issue that less educated (non-college graduate) Americans can't find gainful employment and have stagnant/deteriorating living standards/wages.
2 - Even if 50% of the USA were at Mensa level IQ, you would still have the issues we are talking about.
3 - All of this talk about patents and innovation misses the point that more people are employed in commercialising these scientific or creative breakthroughs or in normal course of non-innovative business than in coming up with these ideas.. the economics of it will always work that way. So what does this have to do with the issue of in the thread?

Every other thread in this place turns into STEM is better than something else, or Google is more innovative than MIT, etc...

UFOinsider wrote: Whgm45

whitecollarands... IB

(Senior Monkey, 85

Points)

on 2/21/12 at 11:45pm

UFOinsider:

Whgm45:

IlliniProgrammer:

PetEng:

My view is that at least 40% of the country is capable of doing calculus. If you can do calculus, you can be a competent STEM person, and competent STEM guys create and maintain middle-class jobs.

Disagree.

"Doing" calculus is not the same as innovating. I doubt more than 15% of the US population has the ability to innovate at even a medium level.

Innovating is only about 10% of the value. The other 90% is perspiration. That is something anyone with work ethic and basic math skills can do.

This. How many of us actually innovate at our jobs, creating new processes, technology, or ways of thinking? Not everyone can be a visionary

I agree with your point. However, I don't think you should equate (indirectly) doing IBD with creating the next Facebook.

Getting a job in IBD = having above average intelligence, decent grades, knowing your shit, and networking

Creating the next Facebook = pure genius

"The problem with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other peoples money"

- Margaret Thatcher

swagon wrote: We need Rick

kmess024

(Senior Baboon, 233

Points)

on 2/21/12 at 11:53pm

swagon:

We need Rick Santorum. He's the only guy proposing specific solutions that will save America from certain doom.

Another crazy radical for president, not this time.

"Americans are in a cycle of fear which leads to people not wanting to spend and not wanting to make investments, and that leads to more fear. We'll break out of it. It takes time"-Warren Buffet

There was a really

MonkeyWrench O

(Monkey, 48

Points)

on 2/21/12 at 11:55pm

There was a really interesting article I read the other day on the Journal that more or less was saying that the decline of the sense of community was one of the biggest issues in the country from a social/developmental level (it also said that the only way to have a good community was to have a religion to center it around, which I don't necessarily agree with, but otherwise a good point). If you think about it, it sort of makes sense. I mean, in the greatest generation, for example, my grandparents used to always tell me how it was so awesome actually having a neighborhood and tight-knit community, because then even when times were tough you had a support system to lean on/events to look forward to, and when things were going well for you, the community kept you grounded. People would walk over to each other's houses unannounced, plan block parties, barbeques, etc. I mean I guess it still happens sometimes, but it just seems less common. Not to mention they used to go on tirades about how TV, Video games and the internet were destroying the social fabric of the country because people just weren't interacting with each other as much on a personal level. There might be something to that.

Never get in a land war in Asia.

Relinquis wrote: Before this

Points)

on 2/22/12 at 12:43am

Relinquis:

Every other thread in this place turns into STEM is better than something else, or Google is more innovative than MIT, etc...

1) Yes, that is the issue. However, the greater proportion of your population that is smart the higher the standard of living for the dumb ones.
2) If half of our population was MENSA level IQs we would be the richest country in the entire world - dwarfing Switzerland/Singapore.
3) If you don't have the innovative classes - you don't have the middle income jobs. At all. Look at Africa or South America. These places have patent production rates that are one level above plankton. And their economies will never be first world if those rates don't improve. Resource extraction will end eventually (pretty much the only sector of their economy that generates decent wealth).

PetEng, point 3 goes back to

(King Kong, 1,042

Points)

on 2/22/12 at 1:21am

PetEng,

point 3 goes back to the issue that the majority of the people employed will not be doing the innovating, rather they would be in other parts of the value chain (some of these parts are more lucrative/require other skills). Point 2 is nonsense. Look at all of the high IQ people who can't find worthwhile jobs (look at any longitudinal study of high IQ people). 1. educated/less educated is not the same as smart/dumb. Are you using these interchangeably? do you mean more people should be educated in order to take advantage of the opportunities that are there in STEM fields? Yes, I agree.

The standards of living in the USA have more to do with the structure of the economy, the laws, institutions, governance, history, culture and natural resources than inherent intelligence of its people... reading this thread you would think that intelligence or moral values were all that mattered.

You are mixing smart with well educated, and are extrapolating from the individual to the macro economy/general population... You can teach someone maths even if they are of average intelligence. They won't be Phd level, but should be able to be a decent engineer / financier / management guy...

The reason countries in africa are poor has little to do with their patent production... it has more to do with the lack of proper governance, institutions, laws, property rights, and other social factors that enable free markets, availability of credit, family planning, education and the necessary infrastructure spending / social safety net of a modern economy.... this is before we even get into the wars, political instability, post colonialism, etc.. Africa's issues have less to do with innovation (in the patents / technology sense of the word) and more to do with institutions, the law and governance... if you look at Asian countries that have come out of poverty you can see that their development was a result of things other than "innovation in the patents sense of the word".... but we're getting off topic.

Patents, technology, etc... are great... even better is basic research that the US and European governments generously support... a lot of these investments are the basis for the patents / technology that large corporations and small innovative ones commercialise for the benefit of society at large... you don't get this kind of basic research unless you have government institutions and a society / culture that supports his kind of investment... this has little to do with the inherent intelligence of the population, or their work ethic or moral values, rather it is an institutional support / allocation of resources to this sector... This doesn't take away from your individual success or achievements, you just don't sound like you know how an economy works.

I thought about writing a

Points)

on 2/22/12 at 2:05am

I thought about writing a novel sized rebuttal. Not worth it.

However there is one thing that literally makes no sense to me.

if you look at Asian countries that have come out of poverty you can see that their development was a result of things other than "innovation in the patents sense of the word".... but we're getting off topic.

Nothing could be more wrong. The definition of a first world economy is most aptly defined as 25k/year per capita GDP (that seems like the right number, but adjust 5k/year either way if you like).

An example might be Korea. Here is a country that with a span of 50 years created Samsung, LG, Hyundai, Kia, Daewoo and countless other industrial companies that compete at the highest level against European, North American, & Japanese companies (and win market share). That requires innovation. That requires patents. And it certainly requires intelligence.

Samsung is about to overtake IBM as the company awarded the most patents annually. Let me phrase that differently. Samsung is about to get more patents than any single company on the entire planet. That's a big deal. It's a tremendous achievement.

To think that innovation hasn't been at the core of South Koreas development (when 50 years ago they were poorer than Mexico) is absolutely idiotic. Their government has created policies which have been extremely focused on economic and tech development!

we went from barbarism to

melvvvar

(King Kong, 1,060

Points)

on 2/22/12 at 6:40am

we went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between.

Ok. Now that PetEng has

(Almost Human, 7,625

Points)

on 2/22/12 at 7:55am

Ok. Now that PetEng has given up, let's just say for argument's sake that there's significant value in being able to do basic math and get to work on time. The world needs innovators and it needs people who can grind out math. It also needs people who can work with their hands.

Regardless, given that the planet is running out of resources and oil will one day be more expensive than gold, and that the "innovators" have not been able to get us off of oil for the past 40 years, none of this matters. Resources are a lot more important than innovation. Especially in our current market cycle of flat equities and increasing resource prices.

We would also be far and away the richest country in the world if we had twice as much farmland.

Work hard, play hard.

Relinquis wrote: Before this

happypantsmcgee O

(Almost Human, 9,263

Points)

on 2/22/12 at 9:04am

Relinquis:

Every other thread in this place turns into STEM is better than something else, or Google is more innovative than MIT, etc...

Great insight. Appreciate your quality responses in this thread and many others.

If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses - Henry Ford

PetEng, This is a real

(King Kong, 1,042

Points)

on 2/22/12 at 9:39am

PetEng,

This is a real tangent. You're not getting my point and have attacked a position I have not made. I'm not arguing that technology isn't important for a modern economy, rather that you are missing the point that it is less relevant to employment of the lower quartile of your workforce education wise than the social and economic policies that your country runs (safety nets, retraining, etc...). An extra 10-20% in number of patents issued is less relevant than making sure people who are in dying industries can manage the transition and retrain for growing industries.

As to the stages of economic development, patents and such come after (as a by-product of) an economy that is industrialising and urbanising... I don't think you realise what stage of development that most African countries are in (or many Asian countries were in 40 years ago)... they can have so much more simply by relying on what we (the world) already know... You need prerequisites before you can start churning out Patents... You need an economic base, and educated workforce, markets & products to "innovate" and build on... etc.... Patents & innovation of this scale don't just pop out of nothing because a few smart guys are born and decide to carpe diem... you don't innovate or churn out that many patents in a vacuum.

"Samsung, LG, Hyundai, Kia, Daewoo and countless other industrial companies" didn't pop out of nowhere because of a few "innovative" Koreans came up with patents. They came about due to national industrial policies, etc... you are looking at the end product/where they are now and are saying they go to where they are because they have patents and are smart, not realising that they didn't need to reinvent the wheel to put the policies in place to get here.

i take it you are a collage student / science major and have a special attachment to technology an science. this is great and I envy your for it, but don't let it cloud your ability to understand how the world works, or how countries, economies and institutions develop over time.

The world doesn't revolve around reinventing the wheel every day. Bringing it back to the original topic, patents don't matter much for the bottom quartile of employment if this segment your workforce doesn't have the skills to contribute to commercialising these patents... this is what we're talking about when we point to the bottom quartile of the American labour force. These aren't people who will be employed directly in R&D...

happypantsmcgee

(King Kong, 1,042

Points)

on 2/22/12 at 9:43am

happypantsmcgee:

Relinquis:

Every other thread in this place turns into STEM is better than something else, or Google is more innovative than MIT, etc...

Great insight. Appreciate your quality responses in this thread and many others.

Thanks happypants, just trying to learn from others and discuss ideas.

It's nothing new. Capitalism

levelworm O

(Orangutan, 280

Points)

on 2/22/12 at 9:53am

It's nothing new. Capitalism always creates superfluous labor, and within which poverty grows. In the old time, say, 19th century and early 20th century, this can be battled with the continuous growth of the American Empire. But this expansion ended eventually, and so ended the "American Dream".

ANT wrote: Unfortunately

http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/small/0904/chill-out...

(Almost Human, 8,063

Points)

on 2/22/12 at 10:26am

ANT:

Unfortunately these people still have a vote.

Socialism will rise or totalitarianism. Both will be to placate the poor and un-needed.

Man, you really need to get out of the bad part of Philly. It's affecting the way you look at the world. People have been saying this stuff for generations about America and even after a recession we're doing ok.

UFOinsider wrote: ANT

(Human, 11,654

Points)

on 2/22/12 at 10:34am

UFOinsider:

ANT:

Unfortunately these people still have a vote.

Socialism will rise or totalitarianism. Both will be to placate the poor and un-needed.

We have an ever increasing amount of people not paying fed taxes

We have global competition and an information/service based economy

Less than 30% of Americans have a bachelors degree

Birth rates for educated, well off individuals is below replacement rate while low income, uneducated birth rates are above replacement rates

Illegal immigration continues, even those we no longer have a need for large amounts of unskilled workers, let alone non English speaking laborers

Everyone has a vote

Tell me how that is going to end positively. We will either placate these people with hand outs (socialism) or keep them in check with force (totalitarianism).

Quote: Ok. Now that PetEng

Points)

on 2/22/12 at 10:35am

Ok. Now that PetEng has given up.

What does that mean? Do you want me to do sentence by sentence rebuttals?

ANT wrote: UFOinsider

(King Kong, 1,414

Points)

on 2/22/12 at 10:37am

ANT:

UFOinsider:

ANT:

Unfortunately these people still have a vote.

Socialism will rise or totalitarianism. Both will be to placate the poor and un-needed.

We have an ever increasing amount of people not paying fed taxes

We have global competition and an information/service based economy

Less than 30% of Americans have a bachelors degree

Birth rates for educated, well off individuals is below replacement rate while low income, uneducated birth rates are above replacement rates

Illegal immigration continues, even those we no longer have a need for large amounts of unskilled workers, let alone non English speaking laborers

Everyone has a vote

Tell me how that is going to end positively. We will either placate these people with hand outs (socialism) or keep them in check with force (totalitarianism).

Also, the sky is falling.

Quote: This is a real

Points)

on 2/22/12 at 10:49am

Why does a plumber make 50k/year in the US but only 5K/year in Mexico?

The skill differences aren't large (I would argue non-existent). Plumbers in the US are more productive because their customers are more productive. That's the value of the congnoscenti.

Working with your hands is an absolute dogshit skill in 50% of the world because their economies are fucking terrible and can't innovate worth shit.

I am a working professional. Not a student.

I have given a lot of thought about why certain countries are rich, and certain countries are poor. Mexico has had 50 years to advance from 2nd world to 1st world but they are unable to. They can't innovate. In the meantime South Korea, China, and, Singapore went from a far lower starting point and are now 1st world economies with blue chip companies.

ANT wrote: Tell me how that

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ifhDZZ9jUvU/TKIISp0iciI/AAAAAAAAB-w/I4x3vHNvEw...

(Almost Human, 8,063

Points)

on 2/22/12 at 10:40am

ANT:

Tell me how that is going to end positively. We will either placate these people with hand outs (socialism) or keep them in check with force (totalitarianism).

http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/small/0904/chill-out...

duffmt6 wrote: ANT

(Human, 11,654

Points)

on 2/22/12 at 10:41am

duffmt6:

ANT:

UFOinsider:

ANT:

Unfortunately these people still have a vote.

Socialism will rise or totalitarianism. Both will be to placate the poor and un-needed.

We have an ever increasing amount of people not paying fed taxes

We have global competition and an information/service based economy

Less than 30% of Americans have a bachelors degree

Birth rates for educated, well off individuals is below replacement rate while low income, uneducated birth rates are above replacement rates

Illegal immigration continues, even those we no longer have a need for large amounts of unskilled workers, let alone non English speaking laborers

Everyone has a vote

Tell me how that is going to end positively. We will either placate these people with hand outs (socialism) or keep them in check with force (totalitarianism).

Also, the sky is falling.

How is this a chicken little scenario? I am not talking in 5 years, but do you think we are going to revert back to an unskilled, manufacturing economy? If anything, the few manufacturing jobs left will become more computerized and complex.

All I am saying is you have an economy that benefits those who have an education or who can move around freely. Those who are unskilled, uneducated and uninventive will find it harder and harder to find quality work.

You either give them hand outs to keep their standard of living decent and them complacent, or you keep them in line with force.

UFOinsider wrote: ANT

(Human, 11,654

Points)

on 2/22/12 at 10:42am

UFOinsider:

ANT:

Tell me how that is going to end positively. We will either placate these people with hand outs (socialism) or keep them in check with force (totalitarianism).

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ifhDZZ9jUvU/TKIISp0iciI/AAAAAAAAB-w/I4x3vHNvEwk/s1600/SendMeYour.jpg

Yeah, shit changes bro.

ANT wrote: UFOinsider

(King Kong, 1,414

Points)

on 2/22/12 at 10:51am

ANT:

UFOinsider:

ANT:

Tell me how that is going to end positively. We will either placate these people with hand outs (socialism) or keep them in check with force (totalitarianism).

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ifhDZZ9jUvU/TKIISp0iciI/AAAAAAAAB-w/I4x3vHNvEwk/s1600/SendMeYour.jpg

Yeah, shit changes bro.

Like the Constitution, right?

duffmt6 wrote: ANT

(Human, 11,654

Points)

on 2/22/12 at 10:53am

duffmt6:

ANT:

UFOinsider:

ANT:

Tell me how that is going to end positively. We will either placate these people with hand outs (socialism) or keep them in check with force (totalitarianism).

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ifhDZZ9jUvU/TKIISp0iciI/AAAAAAAAB-w/I4x3vHNvEwk/s1600/SendMeYour.jpg

Yeah, shit changes bro.

Like the Constitution, right?

No, the Constitution does not change. No where in the Constitution does it say we need to allow immigration into this country. Throughout various times we have restricted immigration, as is our sovereign right.

ANT wrote: duffmt6

(King Kong, 1,414

Points)

on 2/22/12 at 11:01am

ANT:

duffmt6:

ANT:

UFOinsider:

ANT:

Tell me how that is going to end positively. We will either placate these people with hand outs (socialism) or keep them in check with force (totalitarianism).

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ifhDZZ9jUvU/TKIISp0iciI/AAAAAAAAB-w/I4x3vHNvEwk/s1600/SendMeYour.jpg

Yeah, shit changes bro.

Like the Constitution, right?

But shit changes bro. Including the interpretation of the Constitution.

ANT wrote: duffmt6

levelworm O

(Orangutan, 280

Points)

on 2/22/12 at 11:01am

ANT:

duffmt6:

ANT:

UFOinsider:

ANT:

Tell me how that is going to end positively. We will either placate these people with hand outs (socialism) or keep them in check with force (totalitarianism).

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ifhDZZ9jUvU/TKIISp0iciI/AAAAAAAAB-w/I4x3vHNvEwk/s1600/SendMeYour.jpg

Yeah, shit changes bro.

Like the Constitution, right?

It always surprises me that some people believe that the Constitution cannot be changed.

duffmt6 wrote: ANT

http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/small/0904/chill-out...

(Almost Human, 8,063

Points)

on 2/22/12 at 11:06am

duffmt6:

ANT:

duffmt6:

ANT:

UFOinsider:

ANT:

Tell me how that is going to end positively. We will either placate these people with hand outs (socialism) or keep them in check with force (totalitarianism).

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ifhDZZ9jUvU/TKIISp0iciI/AAAAAAAAB-w/I4x3vHNvEwk/s1600/SendMeYour.jpg

Yeah, shit changes bro.

Like the Constitution, right?

But shit changes bro. Including the interpretation of the Constitution.

Yes, about every 80+/- years or so it gets reinterpreted and some minor changes/ammendments made to it. The attidude of "let the poor die, or just corrall them" is basically why the GOP lost. They were building prisons instead of schools.....THAT'S the decline of America that worried me at one point.

And the Liberals way of doing

(Human, 11,654

Points)

on 2/22/12 at 11:13am

And the Liberals way of doing things has worked?

If you cannot take advantage

(Human, 11,654

Points)

on 2/22/12 at 11:14am

If you cannot take advantage of the freedom this country offers, the free K-12 education system, the low cost state university system with subsidized student loans, and all the other goodies that you get, OH WELL.

ANT wrote: And the Liberals